But the problem is I think there’s something only like four or five bishops left in the world who were ordained before the Second Vatican Council. When a pope dies, the see is vacant sure. He’s the one that the college of cardinals elected, and I have no doubt about that. Thus the Sedevacantist must maintain that the Church preserves the Four Marks despite lacking a Successor to Peter, while the orthodox Catholic must prove that such a scenario would mean the Marks had been lost. The term is unauthorised. What's a sedevacantist? Sedevacantism is a phenomenon that we encounter only in the post-conciliar church. And have there been a large number of them in certain parts of the world today? Absolutely. In fact, I had two anti-popes on Facebook try to become my Facebook friends a while back, but I concluded that they just wanted to be Facebook friends so they could promote their anti-papacies, and I didn’t friend them. Something I’ve always wondered about is that I feel like this movement has a time limit or an expiration date on it. 4. Catholic ministers may give the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick to other Christians not in full communion with the Catholic Church…” Antipope John Paul II, Catechism of the Catholic Church (# 521): “By his Incarnation, he, the Son of God, has in a certain way united himself with each man.” The incredibly strange and non-Catholic Society of Saint Pius V (not the Society of Saint Pius X) is officially sedevacantist. Sedevacantism owes its origins to the rejection of the theological and disciplinary changes implemented following the Second Vatican Council (1962–65). Absolutely. For more information, visit trenthornpodcast.com. Are the FSSP sedevacantist? They generally don’t know those distinctions, but their arguments hinge on those distinctions. note: at the time this article was written, it was Benedict XVI] as a legitimate successor of Peter in the primacy. The Church is bigger today than it has ever been in the past, and so it has more members now than it has ever had in the past. But those situations are not representative of the Church as a whole. Absolutely. I’ve read these other solutions before [inaudible 00:25:40] well, the sensus fidelium, the lay faithful as a whole. Caller: Yeah, it definitely helps. So, it seems like one of the common arguments they make is that the See of Peter, the Holy See has been empty, the Chair of Rome is empty, because the pope can not be a heretic, premise one. I don’t think they are entirely on the wrong track, but I believe there are decent rebuttals to their answers. Sedevacantism is the position held by some people who identify as Catholic that the present occupier of the Holy See is not pope due to the mainstream church's espousal of what they see as heresies of modernism and that, for lack of a valid pope, the See has been vacant since the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958, the death of Pope Saint John XXIII in 1963, the death of Pope Saint … A famous sedevacantist is Mel gibson who supports the death penalty. Don’t try to engage in dialogue with a sedevacantist if you don’t know the arguments and the material, because they’ll eat your lunch and they will feel vindicated. So in order to be an apostate, you have to say “I was a Christian and I’m not anymore.”. So, that’s really where the debate is. Saint Catherine of Siena would be another example of that. "Above all taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench all the flaming darts of the evil one" – Ephesians 6:16 All right. But the main thing for everyone to understand is SSPX is not sedevacantism because as you said, Michael, they recognize Pope Francis is the Pope. So, know your stuff and know how to respond. And in fact, you have Clement VIII, Urban VIII, Pius X, Leo XIII, and others who actually did reform some aspects of the Roman Missal way before Vatican II and Paul VI. And now we get into some debates. This will bring back many good catholics who have become sedevacantist. And we do all kinds of stuff on there. Okay. You referenced James Likoudis’s book, The Pope, The Council, and The Mass, which, I don’t think it’s strictly about sedevacantism, but it is about the Second Vatican Council. Anyways hope you guys can help me out here - as we will be discussing I quote "Heresy on Masonic Ecumenism, Heresy on Muslims, or the Heresy on the Jews. Is Pope Francis not the real Pope? Sure. And so you have elements of tradition that are in continuity with the past, but you also have developments that occur within that tradition. As we pray for a new pope we need to ask God for a pope who will be clear and consistent with what the church has taught for 1980 years. Very excited for you to monitor that. I am not convinced by their answers here. Many of them believe that there has not been a valid pope since before Vatican II. Welcome to The Counsel of Trent podcast. So it’s hard to say “we’re in a great apostasy” or “THE Great Apostasy” when the Church is bigger than ever. I have no doubt that the bishops are, as a college, successors of the apostles. And soon, within a couple of centuries, mass was being said in Latin. I don’t think they are entirely on the wrong track, but I believe there are decent rebuttals to their answers. And then Vatican II said all kinds of horrible things, in their mind, that contradicted the historic faith. Super good stuff. We implore Catholics to leave the church of the criminal, immoral and evil Anti Popes and to embrace Sedevacantism which is the true Catholic position. So, it does kind of tie into what we’re discussing today when it comes to authority. But even if you have a pope who is a formal heretic, he consciously and knowingly maintains a heretical proposition or even teaches it publicly, that does not necessarily mean that he loses office. Well, the problem is a lot of times their definitions are faulty, in my experience. The "sedevacantist" only wishes to be a Catholic, nothing more: to believe what Catholics have always believed, worship as Catholics have always worshipped, live as Catholics have always lived. Links to Essential Reading. I have others also, probably about six or eight contributors, it’s in its early genesis. And in the 300s, the divinity of Christ was in was infallibly defined, and so even though that had been part of the tradition up to now, now it was an infallibly defined tradition. I haven’t met too many, I met a few, one or two, in the real world, but I think it comes up more online. I like Catholic Answers. I’m your host, Catholic Answers apologist and speaker Trent Horn. That is something that is allowed for in Catholic teaching, even long before the Second Vatican Council, of recognizing that God is capable of saving people who, through no fault of their own, never had the chance to know who Jesus Christ was. I think it will be very entertaining and engaging. So, I thought it was interesting, last week on Thursday was the first episode for 2021. A sedevacantist could even say, “I don’t know what the method is for getting a new pope, but there must be one.” ... Jimmy is the Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers, a contributing editor to Catholic Answers Magazine, and a weekly guest on "Catholic Answers Live." And then another thing is I would ask them, “Okay, let’s just go ahead and accept the sedevacantist thesis hypothetically. You had a little bit of buyer’s remorse afterwards by one bishop—I’m thinking of Marcel Lefebvre— but at the time of the Council, he didn’t you know, shout from the rooftops, “This is all wrong.” He signed the Vatican II documents. That would be a dogma. Or they’re at least obstinately doubting something that is dogmatic, too. And that’s something the Catholic Church accepts and recognizes, and it’s mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Correct? That is why I’m working on, as a little project right now, an anthology that covers this. Yeah. So, finding a sedevacantist who’s aware of the distinction between formal heresy and material heresy, or better yet, a public heretic versus a notorious heretic and the crime of heresy, if they know those distinctions, you’ve found somebody extremely exceptional. It’s a really sad state to be in, if you were to maintain that thesis. Cekada explains very simply why only the sedevacantist position is the truly Catholic position to take with regard to the Vatican II Church and the apostasy it has engendered, and how we can know this for certain. Create a website or blog at WordPress.com. There’s no consent of the intellect and will there. What are your thoughts? But yes, this is another area that I’ve noted with them. But getting a sedevacantist to understand those parameters and the proper distinctions is very, very difficult. For the Catholic Church has always regarded as schismatic those who obstinately oppose the lawful prelates of … Oh, yeah. He also promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it. It is against Christ’s will. The minor premise, that the popes are heretics, the problem seems to be, and you could address this more at length in your reply, the problem it seems to be the understanding of what constitutes a heresy. There are people in every age who apostatize. And I’m so glad you were here on the show today with us. And it seems to my mind, well, before we get to the main arguments that people will make, you or I as a Catholic, what is just the overarching problem with this claim that the see has been empty going on now for about 60 years? And I think you can comment on this well because you actually wrote a whole book on this subject, right? From what I have heard, I would guess that Mel Gibson is a sedevacantist. Sedevacantist claims are purely negative (“the putative Catholic Church is heretical, therefore we by default are the true Church”) resting on certain doctrinal controversies and arguments over whether something is a legitimate theological conclusion or actual heresy (claims that the Catholic Church has fallen into heresy are not new, just ask the Greeks or the non … They just don’t necessarily agree with [inaudible 00:08:44] I don’t agree with the Pope all the time. dominikus28 July 22, 2007, 7:04am #1. And so we could talk about somebody who is a material heretic. So, those events, the unacceptable behavior and riots that happened at the US Capitol, the overarching question is what do you do when you think the fundamental authority is not really an authority anymore? Jimmy: Well, there are anti-popes. All right. You wrote: “being a good Catholic nowadays requires one to ignore 90 percent of what comes out of Rome.” Go ahead and ignore 90 percent of what comes out of Rome and you’ll probably be more at peace. On Tuesdays and Thursdays, we talk apologetics, theology, how to explain and defend our Catholic faith, and that’s what we’re going to talk about today. In the past Cathy has published articles both in scholarly journals and on various popular Catholic websites, including Real Presence Communications and Catholic Exchange. The Sedevacantist Delusion concerns the new face of Roman Catholicism introduced with Vatican II (1962–1965) and its most antagonistic enemy since the Protestant Reformers: the Sedevacantists.. He gives them the graces of baptism so they are baptized in a loose sense, not with water but perhaps by vicarious baptism of desire of the parents. Some of the specific positions advocated by various groups of sedevacantists might strike ordinary Catholics as funny, but schism is no laughing matter. And I would agree with you. I don’t think God would providentially allow that, especially for so long and worldwide. So I’ve come across a website that talks about the sedevacantist-type idea of how the Church might be in the great apostasy and how we might not be only in the great apostasy, but that the Catholic Church has ventured from its original traditions. I can not find it in my dictionary. Ironically, I would express genuine concern that they have left the church and are in danger of losing salvation. What we would need to have The Great Apostasy is the Church, on a global scale, shrinking, dramatically shrinking. We are not a new church since Vatican II. Yeah. I’m not familiar with too many books on the subject. Now there was another component to your question which is: has the Church abandoned its traditions? I really think that is the definitive guide against sedevacantism, so definitely go and get a copy of that. The Community, while living in the world, attempt to live according to the Rule of Saint Augustine as much as is practically possible. Because it has not only the element of continuity, but it also has the element of development that occurs, and you can’t arbitrarily fossilize a certain stage in the Church’s history and say “There can be no departures from this. That’s not Catholic teaching. can be distinguished from run-of-the-mill Traditionalists by their beliefs, Interviews, round table discussions, debates. And you do not have bishops, you don’t have the the pope and the body of bishops saying “Guess what, you know, we used to be Christian, but we’re not anymore.” Therefore, whatever criticisms you have of the pope and the bishops, they have not apostatized. Has the perennial teaching changed, or has it been further affirmed and deepened even more? by Salza and what was the other co-author? Well, one follow up, though, on sedevacantism. It’s an honor to be with you. You have to be formal in it, but then also the subject matter has to be something that you ascend to with divine and Catholic faith. And if you’re just learning Church teaching for the first time, you may not want to be exposing yourself to material that has a high risk of distorting things or presenting it in an imbalanced way. And so part of the problem with sedevacantists is they don’t recognize the degree to which development can happen. Neither one holds water & is just a distraction from the … Right. But if there was some horrendous theological error that struck at the foundation of the Church, some group of the episcopate would have protested. However, those events last week, and it’s interesting, now I am pre-recording this episode just a day or two after that, so by the time it airs who knows what’s going to happen in the future. What happens to sedevacantism, if they’re waiting for the true pope to arrive, how could that be if it seems like they’ve totally severed a connection with the past? Absolutely. No. They insist frequently—and frankly—on an uncharitable reading of every development, and portray it as if it was an unacceptable development, and they have essentially fossilized a certain stage of development in the history of the Church and said “Any departure from that is an apostasy.” And that’s just a misrepresentation, both of the concept of apostasy and of the way tradition works. So, I think that’s the [inaudible 00:07:36]. So, I would actually quote Vatican II to tell them genuinely, and from a very concerned heart, that I’m very concerned that they are putting their salvation in jeopardy because they are formally, well, at the very least, materially in schism, but in many cases formally in schism. AngelusDomini April 21, 2020, 2:19am #65. Our attention must be diverted from the external to the internal needs of man. This group was created as a place for Catholics (those who uphold the one, true faith and are aware of the heresy of the Novus Ordo) to share the advertisement of their wares with others. And in 381, the divinity of the Holy Spirit was infallibly defined. Nobody is claiming that an infant who dies in a state of mortal sin sees the beatific vision. Catholic Questions and Answers – One of the best ways to learn is to ask questions. But they reject the Church and refuse to cede on Teachings. Whereas a formal heretic, there actually is consent there. I’m your host, Catholic Answers apologist and speaker Trent Horn. And I think it’s at the point that one could not really reverse it if they were to maintain the sedevacantist thesis. And so I think they often jump the gun. And how do you know which group, now, that identifies as the true church, how do you know when they have selected a pope? It’s a topic very, very dear to me for many reasons. Now, the proposition “no salvation outside of the church,” that is infallibly taught. I’ve been asked to post this question here from the apologetics section. Sedevacantist statements are often built upon false assumptions that, when removed, collapse any … No additional nickname is therefore necessary. We urge you earnestly to cease from attending all services and invalid masses at the churches of the Anti Christ and to cease from receiving their invalid sacraments. This will bring back many good catholics who have become sedevacantist. M. P. Hill, S.J. Thank you sedevacantist for bringing up the problems, but stay with the pope and work to stop them. Well, I think it’s contingent upon several claims that they make. If you die in the state of mortal sin, you’re separated from God for all eternity. So, we saw that with people contesting elections and things with the US government. Take something like Christ’s real presence in the Eucharist, or someone who denies the teaching that it is wrong to directly kill an innocent human being. Interestingly, the most significant summary of our Catholic faith was written by St. Thomas Aquinas (called the Summa Theologica – Summary of Theology) and is set up in a question and answer format. So, it seems to me, Michael, the problem is sedevacantists, what kinds of teachings do they try to say that these popes, what specific subjects do they say the popes are guilty being heretical of, is the most common ones that come up. Sedevacantism is the theological position of those traditional Catholics who most certainly believe in the papacy, papal infallibility and the primacy of the Roman Pontiff, and yet do not recognize “Pope” Francis [Edit. Right, right. I’m actually going to be on that channel soon to do a Catholic Economics Round Table, it’s going to be super fun. Produced by True Restoration in 2011, it is a calm and insightful conversation in which Fr. After generations of too exclusive occupation with outward and technical progress, accompanied by a serious neglect of the inner life, we now stand in need of a moral and spiritual life. People such as this woman have a “faith” that is corrupt to the core, yet this corruption won’t show up on Sunday when they are seen “devoutly” assisting at the Traditional Mass. Another question I have is that, and this may come up, I think the sedevacantism question is going to come up a lot more after the passing of Pope Benedict XVI because there’s a fair number of people who have been upset with aspects of Francis’s pontificate who have held to say, “Well, maybe Pope Benedict is actually really still the pope.” But before I get to that question, would you agree it’s important when discussing with sedevacantists to show empathy, and that things both in the post-conciliar church and during even Francis’s pontificate, there are a fair number of things be frustrated by, and so it’s fair to do that, to establish that valid common ground. Catholic Answers Focus actually did a great interview with a representative of the Society for Catholic Answers Focus, a very enlightening interview, and I think a very helpful and educational one. Exactly. Sedevacantist claims and arguments require context to be refuted. Premise two, all of the popes after the Second Vatican Council are heretics. Philosophy. We are totally indifferent to the so-called new Church, and concentrate on living according to God’s Law, along with the Commands of our Holy Mother the Roman Catholic Church. So that aspect of the tradition adapted. Well, personally, I’m a convert to the Catholic Church, although I was for a period of time Protestant and also Eastern Orthodox, so I’ve kind of been on the whole spectrum of things when it comes to Christianity. How often do they have access to it. Please read the Catholic Bible, The Catechism (pre-1958 editions only) Catholic prayer books, the writings of the Early Church Fathers and other traditional Catholic works if you wish to understand true Catholicism and pray to God for help and guidance in this most desperate and troubled age. You have not committed apostasy. I love the Catholic Faith and wish only to profess it in all its purity and fullness. And I would tell them, “Look, you need to get back to the sacraments.” If we’re in a position where the vast majority of people in the world can no longer receive the sacraments, I think you might need to rethink some things here. And I don’t see the sedevacantists saying the gates of Hell have prevailed. And sedevacantism effectively says that the See of Peter, the papacy, the Bishop of Rome, is unoccupied right now. So, in another 10 or 20 years it seems like there will be no bishops, no cardinals. elvisman January 9, 2007, 8:12pm #2. estesbob: I saw a note where this is now allowed to be discussed in the Traidtional Catholicism forum. The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) recognizes the validity of all legitimate popes, including Pope John II, under whom its founder, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, and the four bishops he unlawfully ordained were excommunicated in 1988. But sometimes I’ll record the episode at one point in history, and then when the episode airs, the national mood shifts a little bit. But that definitely is a great one. What are other tips or resources you would recommend for people? traditional Catholic sect called Sedevacantists claims Vatican II was invalid and all post-Vatican II popes. Coache,[1] make it a matter of faith, and refuse to assist at Masses where the priest prays for the pope. So, they fail to make the proper distinctions in what we’re actually saying. Traditional Catholicism. Have a blessed day. http://www.catholic.comJimmy Akin is an internationally known author and speaker. So, it’s okay to have that fraternal correction that is done in an appropriate way. TNT: Ya know, this is pretty shallow. However, he was publicly accused by a fellow sedevacantist clergyman, Denis Chicoine, of being involved in homosexual relationships with underage associates, ... Radio-Free Catholic. So, they have to either obstinately deny or doubt one of those things. Kasper. Eventually we will get to the point where there are no priests that have been ordained before the Second Vatican Council. Hey, Trent. Catholic Answers. I know there’s Patrick Madrid and Pete Vere did a little book on it that’s fine enough called More Catholic Than the Pope? And I’ll be talking in my dissertation about the teaching authority, the magisterium. And so I think you’re right about this, that one of the problems in sedevacantism is they’ll say, “Proposition X is a heresy. And so it can’t just be something that is taught with a lower level in the magisterium; it has to be actually something that is dogmatic, that is in the deposit of faith and has been confirmed by the Catholic Church definitively. That’s one of the big problems that I’ve noticed with sedevacantism. So, then let’s jump right into sedevacantism. So, you brought up the example of there is no salvation outside the church, which is something that has been taught all the way back, you go to Saint Cyprian of Carthage, that has been taught. This is for all times.” And yet he, a saint, Pius X, reformed the breviary. Answer: The authority a Catholic has to determine that heretics are not members of the Church is Catholic dogma, which teaches us that those who depart … Yeah. Sure. We’re not gonna be a sixth of mankind and be bigger than we’ve ever been in history. Our Constitution Reversurus, published on July 12, 1867, answers this objection. And I think honestly, a lot of people do this. We’re not gonna be a sixth of mankind and be bigger than we’ve ever been in history. Does that give you some help? Also, as a sneak peek to everyone listening, we could use more resources on this subject and on other issues related to people who feel like the Catholic Church has abandoned them, and maybe they’re looking at sedevacantism or Eastern Orthodoxy or Anglicanism. 2. And by the way, I’m glad you bring this up because one point to note here is that if you have that few bishops who are validly ordained in the world, that means most people can’t receive the sacraments. Click here to learn about the Society of Saint Pius V. O kay, so that’s sedevacantism. This article originally appeared on the Traditionalist blog Athanasius Contra Mundum on September 3rd, 2009. So, there is a debate on that aspect. That is something that, and there can be heresy really to things that are theological teachings but also moral teachings, but not as many moral categories fall under this. One is that they believe that the post-conciliar popes are heretics. So, why don’t then, as we continue, tell us a little bit more about what sedevacantism is. Heresy is the obstinate, so you have to persist in it even though you’ve been corrected, you’re not an accidental formal heretic, the obstinate post-baptismal denial, so after you’re baptized. And I would agree with you. The Catholic’s Ready Answer [1915], Rev. Well, one of the things you discover when you read the Church’s documents and when you study the course of history is, although tradition has elements of continuity that are the same all the way down through Church history and have been since the first century, there are other elements of tradition that adapt and that develop with the course of time. He is the host of the Reason and Theology YouTube channel. He is a member of one of the break away independent traditionalist "Catholic" Churches which do not recognize the Pope and some of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Capitalism, distributism, socialism. Positions. Father Z is not a Sedevacantist in the least, unless one’s definition of Sedevacantism is anyone who criticizes or disagrees with the Pope on some issues (in which case 90% of Catholics, and great Saints like St Peter Damian and St Catherine of Siena would qualify as “Sedevacantists” in one way or another). And that tells us that Christ is maintaining his Church in the truth fundamentally, just like he said he would. vaya con Dios, dave [/quote] sede = seat vacante = empty. The way they define the term “heretic” or what constitutes heresy is often lacking. Nobody can reform it. We do not doubt that you know well how vain and worthless this evasion is. Sedevacantist. They say that “So-and-so is a heretic. So in your opinion, Jimmy, you would say that there are—this is just a clarification for me personally— you would say that there definitely are not any anti-popes, and all of the bishops still have their full succession from the original Church from the beginning, correct? Because this is a…I mean, I don’t discourage people from looking at information and arguments, but there are questions of timing, and while you’re going through this education of yourself in learning about Church teaching and what the Church says, I don’t know that it’s the most prudent time to be reading material that attacks the Church in this way, because they’re going to be distorting. What’s curious here, I would base that on lumen gentium, Vatican II. Jimmy Akin explains why the reasons given by sedevacantists for their position are faulty and contrary to the promises of Christ. (I had initially asked it there, because the question was relevant to me as a non-Catholic as an apologetic matter to understand the Catholic response to this sort of argument, but I of course defer to the rules of the fora.) I understand what they’re wrestling with and I detest some of the things that they detest. Let’s go on to another one which, outside of theological matters, might be in liturgical matters or canon law. But as to the issue here, what they’ll try to do to get around that, because they recognize, “Okay, this is a major, major problem. There’s not going to be a sudden apostasy with nobody noticing. 4. But that kind of argument seems to me to misunderstand that, no, the pope has full and supreme power over the church, that if one pope could say that no future pope could ever change any matters regarding canon law or the celebration of the liturgy, it would evacuate the papacy of all of its authority over the church. Absolutely. So that aspect of the tradition adapted. Sedevacantism. In this episode, Trent sits down with Michael Lofton of Reason and Theology to examine sedevacantism and explore how to refute this unfortunate schism within the Church. Tag: sedevacantist The Subsisting Church Alone Who Saves. Sedevacantism. A sedevacantist believes that the chair of Peter is empty. I’m really excited about that. And they do respect and revere the Holy Father. Whatever your theory on how God does this is really irrelevant because the point is it is permitted and in fact magisterial to say that we can have the hope that God does remit that original sin and so they don’t die in a state deprived of his grace. Thanks for having me on. The Church as a whole is growing, and it’s one-sixth of mankind. So, if you deny the teaching that it is wrong to directly kill an innocent human being, that would constitute heresy. We’re not gonna be a sixth of mankind and be bigger than we’ve ever been in history. Caller: I was protestant, I then ventured into atheism, and now I am currently at RCIA accepting the Catholic faith. So, identifying properly a magisterial proposition, weighing it, and interpreting it, and determining its proper level of ascent, these are areas where I’ve noticed they’re deficient.
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